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The Christian Art Of Adopting Frozen Babies- And Why You Might Want to Consider It

Preamble

Several years ago I did an interview with a friend shortly after his wife gave birth to a ‘snowflake baby’- an affectionate and mildly tragic moniker given to children created in a lab who were frozen and then thawed before being implanted and ultimately born.

Their baby was conceived and fertilized several years ago, but was abandoned by his parents, He was placed in a laboratory freezer where for nearly a decade he wasted away with his siblings, the same fate as an estimated 600,000 more precious souls.

My friend and his wife sacrificed much to rescue him through an “embryo adoption”, where they saved the child from certain death and implanted the embryo in her womb, bringing forth renewed life after years of frozen purgatory.

It garnered much interest, and many people contacted me with poignant stories and pointed questions. Some folk were extremely grieved, having friends and family who had participated in IVF and now were waking up to the horror of realizing that their loved ones had abandoned their babies to be killed- that they had discarded their nieces and nephews in this unholy pursuit.

One woman spoke of how her daughter-in-law had created a child using IVF, leaving the rest of their babies in limbo. She asked if we knew anyone who would consider an embryo adoption so she could see her grandchildren one day. She lamented that she would give birth to these herself if she could, but being in her 50s it was no longer possible, and her helplessness was palpable.

Still, others were incensed. They were upset that I would dare hint that they had done anything wrong and vigorously protested the notion that their embryos were real human beings with souls. These were professing Christian women, specifically, and they refused to acknowledge the weight of what they had done.

But by far, the biggest category was those who had never heard of embryo adoption before- otherwise known as “snowflake adoption” due to the embryos being frozen and having to be thawed- and were curious to know more, and even whether this was something their family could do, as a means of fulfilling the biblical mandate to rescue those being taken away to death and hold back those staggering towards the slaughter.

Here’s all you’d ever want to know.

The Interview

Q: When did you first hear about embryo adoption, and when did the first serious conversations with your wife start taking place, asking “should we as a family do this?”

We first heard about embryo adoption from our friends who gave birth to twins that were frozen for 11 years). That was back in 2011 or 2012. It was sometime around 2013 that my wife began expressing interest in adopting children this way, and we began discussing what it would take to be able to do it.

Q: Was your wife on board the whole time, or was this something you had to convince her of?

Actually, my wife was the one who had to continue to press me about it. She would talk about it, but I just kind of thought about it as something other people were able to do but not something that would really ever be possible for us. I didn’t know how we could do it financially, she had her tubes tied after our last child, she had three c-sections already, and it just seemed like a huge mountain to climb in my mind. But she was faithful to begin looking into options and places to begin and to continue to gently press me about it. Finally, we decided to save a large portion of our tax return one year and that was the beginning of God providing financially for the whole thing.

Q: What made you decide to choose embryo adoption vs traditional adoption?

Well, we actually plan to adopt traditionally sometime in the future, so we haven’t actually ever decided against it. But we were intrigued by the Baker’s testimony regarding embryo adoption, and then some other Abolitionist couples we were close to adopted embryos (unfortunately, neither of them brought children to term), and we just saw how great a need there is and how disregarded these “unknown millions” are. So we decided to take our light and let it shine in the direction of the IVF industry and the orphans that existed as a result of it.

Q: How did your children react to your choice, as well as the rest of your extended family?

Our children were excited and completely accepting of the idea from the moment we told them. But they are used to being around Abolitionism, and so it didn’t really seem all that outlandish to them. They love babies and were excited to have another little sibling. Our extended families were totally unaware of the fact that this was even a thing. So they had a lot of questions, some concerns (which we addressed), and ended up being supportive overall.

Q: How did you decide to choose which children to rescue? Did he have several siblings? Did you flip through a dossier with information on the parents and his genetic dispositions?

Actually, God chose these children for us. Some fertility clinics do have books of embryos to choose from, with short bio of the parents (such as GPA, career, eye color, nationality, height, weight, medical background, etc.). However, the clinic we adopted from does not have lists and lists of donated embryos. In fact, there can be up to a two-year wait for adoptive parents at the clinic we chose. When we got on the waiting list there were 5 couples ahead of us waiting for available embryos to adopt.

There had just been three sets of two embryos (a total of six) donated to this clinic (from former clients). Two sets had been adopted out prior to us getting on the list, and two embryos were left. The five couples ahead of us all passed on the two we adopted because they were African American, and these couples did not want African American children, so we jumped straight to the front of the line. We were willing to rescue any children that were available for rescue.

Q: Has it been strange choosing to give birth to a child that is not biologically your own? Have you thought differently about him or had differing affections towards him compared to your other children?

We had very little information about their biological parents, so it has always been a toss-up regarding what these children might look like. With your own children, you expect that they will have many or most of your features and look somewhat like their siblings. We had no idea (not that it mattered, but it was very exciting to wonder about it). I can say without the slightest doubt that we have loved these children we adopted to an equal degree as our own. There hasn’t been even a hint of partiality in our hearts between our differently conceived children.

Q: In a few short paragraphs, what does the process of embryonic adoption entail?

It starts off with the application and initial medical history, choosing embryos, legal transfer of rights of embryos before a judge (depending on the state what this entails varies), lab work of husband and wife, determining the wife’s last day of menstruation to figure out a start date of the transfer cycle.

You begin birth control pills to regulate the woman’s cycle, lupron injections for several weeks in the stomach, a trial transfer to make sure there aren’t any unforeseen obstacles to transfer, which in our case there were and required an additional outpatient surgery, baseline check to determine uterine lining thickness, which determines transfer date, Progesterone injections in the hip, both injections administered by husband, and estrogen patches which lasted at least until the pregnancy test.

If positive, injections continue until about the ninth week of pregnancy, about ten weeks total. They thaw the embryos the morning of the transfer (5-6 days after uterine lining is where it needs to be) and praying that they are all still alive. If not, the whole process has to start over from the beginning.

Then they transfer the embryos through a catheter through the cervix and wait for a pregnancy test a couple of weeks later. If the test is positive, daily Progesterone injections are continued for about eight more weeks. A second blood test is required to make sure the pregnancy is progressing (if the HCG numbers do not double daily this likely means you miscarried after implantation).

The whole thing is both physically and emotionally draining on both parents, but especially the mother. In our case, we had to drive back and forth to Tulsa from Norman, about a 3-hour round trip. Injections had to be administered each day at the same time, which sometimes required us pulling over on the drive back from Tulsa and do the injection on the side of the turnpike. One of our children did not survive after implantation (our daughter named her Ruth) and our positive pregnancy test was bittersweet when the Endocrinologist told us.

Q: What is cost/price difference for doing a snowflake adoption vs a traditional open/close/oversees adoption?

Our total cost was $12,000 which included an extra $2,000 surgery to dilate my wife’s cervix due to scar tissue interference from previous c-sections. To break that down, there was a “package deal” that was a total of $5800. But we had a $500 legal fee, $850 trial transfer fee, costs of medications around $2500-$3000, plus labs and initial clinic visits before the package deal kicked in.

If foster-to-adopt parents do so through DHS, the adoption is essentially free. Adopting from a private agency can run $8,000-$40,000 after attorney fees, counseling fees, medical fees, etc., and to adopt overseas you will likely pay no less than $30,000 (for both legitimate and illegitimate fees to corrupt governments and orphanages). But I would never discourage adoption by any of these options. Adoption is needed in all of these areas.

Q: Do children born through IVF and frozen for long periods have a higher risk for congenital disabilities and abnormalities than babies conceived the natural way?

After the thawing process, it is observed that there is often cell loss or cell degradation. I’ve seen people talking about “our embryos only had 10% cell degradation/loss.” I was reading on the Genetics and IVF Institute website, and it stated that embryos thawed that maintained greater than 50% cell viability (or retained 50% of its blastomeres) is considered to be an embryo that has ‘survived. Less than 50% is considered to have “partially survived.” The lower the cell degradation rate, the better chance of survival until implantation.

As far as birth defects are concerned, there is a greater risk of low birth rates and premature births with children conceived through IVF. My son was premature due to Placenta Previa, which is also more common in IVF-conceived pregnancies. There is also a greater risk of multiple births, such as twins, triplets, etc., which also causes lower birth weights in children. This information is from the Mayo Clinic website.

It is hard to determine whether birth defects resulting from children born through IVF are caused from the process itself or from the infertility of the woman (although since infertile women aren’t really supposed to be getting pregnant, the use of IVF to do so would be a factor in any child conceived having birth defects IMO). This article in Time Magazine suggests that birth defects are higher from IVF births (but they admit it could be due to fertility complications in the mother). So, all that to say, there are conflicting studies out there and the jury is still out.

Q: If in-vitro is the process that helps families have babies who are otherwise infertile, which then brings them great joy to have a child that is their own flesh, why is this a bad thing?

IVF is sinful for many compounding reasons. First is that we have a great need for parents to adopt already existing orphans. IVF says, “I will go out of my way to ignore these orphans in order to unnaturally have my own flesh and blood children.” So, the IVF industry actually discourages the adoption of already-born orphans in the world.

Second, IVF unnecessarily endangers human beings. They are created in a petri dish, and the “leftovers” that survive or are not weeded out, are frozen in liquid nitrogen to -196 degrees. If they were frozen prior to the newer freezing method called “vitrification” (a flash freeze process), they could have as low as a 50% chance thaw survival rate. With vitrification, it is claimed there is as high as a 90% survival rate. But, needless to say, freezing humans you have unnecessarily created, with a good chance of death, is inhumane and unethical.

The IVF industry also dehumanizes these pre-born children by treating them like disposable commodities. They create large numbers of embryos, knowing that most of them will not survive (either through intentional discarding or unintentional death through freezing or miscarriage). When the parents and Doctors learn that one embryo implanted but the other one or two died, they celebrate because that is all they really expected and were hoping for.

Suppose parents have any kind of history of genetic or health defects themselves. In that case, they can opt for PGD and/or PGS testing, which tests the embryo (by taking a portion of it which can result in its death) and testing it for recessive genes that may result in that embryo being born with whatever disease the parent has. If the embryo tests positive, they are simply destroyed and “better grade” embryos are chosen for transfer and/or freezing.

There are other kinds of testing that are done as well. When we filled out our paperwork, we filled out the same paperwork as parents coming for IVF. On one of the pages were the options we wanted for any “leftover embryos” after a successful cycle. This page did not apply to us since we were not creating any embryos but instead rescuing the “leftovers.” The three options included donating the remaining embryos, destroying them, or donating them to scientific research, which results in their destruction.

So even if a couple decided that they were going to only create as many embryos as they were willing to have transferred into her womb without freezing any of them, it is still unethical. Why? Because you are ignoring orphans already among you. You are unnecessarily legitimizing and funding the IVF industry, which in the majority of cases does most or all of the above practices.

Recent studies have shown that doing fresh transfers (transfers of embryos without freezing them) may actually be more dangerous for the embryos because they are being introduced into the uterus, which may become irritated and inflamed from the egg retrieval process just days before, and therefore unnecessarily endangering your children. This is in part because an irritated and inflamed uterus will expel the embryo rather than allow him to implant.

And lastly, as stated above, the IVF industry not only discourages the adoption of already existing orphans but is responsible for creating hundreds of thousands of new orphans; it is an orphan-making industry.

Q: Why should we consider embryos to be human beings? Why would you equate discarding or freezing embryos to be no different than having an abortion?

Human embryos are human beings in the same way that human fetuses, human infants, human adolescents, human teenagers, human adults, and human seniors are human beings. Each of these descriptions is merely descriptions of the human stages of development. None of them speaks to the ontology of the being. Therefore if any humans possess human rights, based upon the fact that they are human, then all humans must possess them, regardless of their stage of development, abilities or inabilities, or any other arbitrary standards or qualifications.

But that begs the question, and we must go deeper. Why do humans possess rights at all? Why is human life more dignified than other life? This is a theological question with a theological answer. The Bible gives us that answer. It is because we are made in God’s Image (Genesis 9:6). God demonstrates the value of His image-bearing creatures by sending His own Son to become one of us (in the womb of a virgin), in order to redeem us from our sin, separation, and judgment of God. Our value is so great in God’s eyes that is cost Him the life of His Son.

Q: What do you think the Christian and the Church’s obligation should be towards our 600,000 frozen pre-born neighbors? What can we do?

First, pastors and teachers should start shining the light onto the evil of IVF rather than ignoring it and allowing the majority of Christendom to remain in ignorance about it. I believe there really is much ignorance here. Most Christians who know anything about IVF see it as a pro-life thing. After all, it is the pursuit of having children and making families. Most do not see or know about the dark underbelly of this practice.

Secondly, when Christians begin to become educated about it, when it is preached against as sin and discouraged as sin, they as individuals need to verbally and actively oppose it in the same way and to the same degree they should oppose abortion.

Thirdly, we should view these pre-born children, imprisoned in freezers, the same way we view already-born children who have been orphaned by their parents (although, I hesitate to say this because I don’t think Christians currently view born orphans rightly, evidenced through the overwhelming Christian inaction in fostering and adopting them or in opposition to abortion). They should begin thinking through how they might go about rescuing these orphans themselves.

Further, we desperately need Christian medical professionals and entrepreneurs, and business men and women, to begin figuring out how we might open clinics that do only embryo adoption and have no participation in IVF, but rather are a visible and vocal reminder of the evil of the IVF industry. This is something that has become a vision for some Abolitionists already.

Editor’s Note. This interview was lightly edited for clarity

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In New Interview, Beth Moore Talks SBC Racism, Sexism, and Whether or Not Women Can Preach

Beth More joined Preston Sprinkle for episode #1000 of Theology in the Raw, where they touched on her life story, the infamous “go home” statement from John MacArthur, her views on complementarianism, and the direction the SBC is heading, which she says is very, very bad.

Explaining her growing misgivings about her former denomination, she shares that because right-wing fundamentals are taking it over, soon what she was mostly doing, women preaching and teaching other women, would soon no longer be tolerated.

“I was watching a severe pull to the far conservative, what I would say beyond conservatism into fundamentalism, in a part of our denomination where I was beginning to watch…and see, oh my word, women are not even going to be allowed to do what I did.”

She says that those pulling the denomination to the right were not the “old guard” but instead coming out of Southern Baptist seminaries. With many churches not having Sunday school anymore, she asked, “Where exactly do you want our women teachers to teach now?” while lamenting the church “has made no place for us.” She explains:

“It just to me, it was a train wreck. And it was like, You know what, I’m old. I’m old. I’m almost done. You can’t now go take it all away from me because it’s all done.

But I will fight to the death for my little sisters to have a place to serve in the Gospel witness. There is no possible way that the Holy Spirit was poured out on sons and daughters to prophesy, that women are not also gifted to proclaim the gospel. It is a lie to think otherwise.“

When pressed whether she is a complementarianism (she’s not, because she’s been preaching everywhere), she says that she doesn’t like labels but that:

“I’m comfortable where I am right now. Because where I am, the only thing that women can’t do in my region and where I go to church is that they can’t be the senior pastor or priest.”

She concludes that she’s glad she left the SBC because there’s a a lot of “weirdness” found in Southern Baptist Churches not found in her current denomination, and that while there are some salt of the earth Southern Baptists who are decent folk, those who were sexist toward her were also likely racists as well.

“I was in so far that I saw things that were so objectionable, and to me in regard not only to sexism but racism, which I believe almost always- that body and just a physical body, the body that holds on to sexism, I mean, we got two arms and two hands, almost always in the other hand, is racism.

Because its power, its power. It’s the fists, that’s the fists, and I have been in so far and seen so much that it to me was, I no longer felt that I belonged. I no longer felt welcome. I no longer felt wanted, but also, it was an act in some ways of protest, of saying no, no, I will not be part of this.

And if bringing a lot of attention to it, in a very public divorce, very public, very public, nasty divorce. If that somehow does something to change the climate for the young women coming up behind us, then I promise you, my pain will not be in vain.”


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Babylon Bee CEO And Joe Rogan Talk Abortion + Rogan Admits ‘Abortion at 6 Months…That’s Literally Killing a Baby’

Babylon Bee CEO Seth Dillon appeared on one of the world’s most popular podcasts, The Joe Rogan Experience, to talk censorship, humor, the transgender lobby, grooming behavior, Libs of TikTok, the purpose of satire, and a lengthy segment on abortion where a visibly irate Rogan pushes back on Dillon’s insistence that life begins at conception and that all abortion is murder.

Over a three-hour conversation, Dillon and Rogan appeared to have broad agreement on various topics, including most of the subjects above. When the conversation turns to Christian charity and abortion, things get heated. Rogan begins suggests that socially and economically speaking, there needs to be a more ‘level playing field.’

Rogan: “And I think if you wanted to really give people the best chance in life, don’t give them a f***** up childhood. Figure out a way to, somehow or another, revive communities and give them a sustainable future, where you don’t have a long history of gang violence and crime and drug sales and violence.

… And there’s some people that just got a s*** roll the dice. And a lot of conservative people don’t want to recognize that. They don’t want to talk about that. They always- there’s this narrative, this pull yourself up by your bootstraps. There’s people that don’t have f****** shoes….”

Dillon: But should that be done by the government or privately? I would think that, you know, with a lot of conservatives who are often criticized for that mentality, that ‘oh, yeah, we know that equality is just, you know, making sure everybody has the same opportunity. Nobody needs a leg up. These people should pull them up by their bootstraps.’ I do think that people, generally speaking, Christian conservatives are very compassionate and do a lot of charity work.

Rogan: “Yes, they do, yes”

Dillon: A ton of charity work. And so they are willing to put their own time volunteering and donating money towards causes that help with those things. You know, you look at, like Crisis Pregnancy Centers, for example, which Elizabeth Warren wants to shut down for some reason. I mean, these are helping women in need, and she wants to shut them down. And these are people who are volunteering their time, their resources, their money, to help people who are in a tough spot. And it’s it’s completely charity, it’s kindness. It’s love and compassion.

But it’s always, you know, always painted with a brush of ‘Oh, yeah, you know, you’re on your own. We only care about children before they’re born, not after they’re born,’ you know.? But I do think I honestly, an argument can be made that conservative Christians are the most charitable people there are.”

Rogan: They’re very charitable people.

As the conversation progresses to the subject of abortion, Rogan says he’s “pretty absolute” when it comes to a woman’s right to choose, using the case of a 14-year old who has been raped as someone who “should not have to f***** carry some rapist baby” and insists repeatedly that everyone has to agree on that. Thankfully, Dillon jumps in and pushes back on this notion and they have a real skirmish about it. While Dillon seemed to hesitate with laying it all out early on that all abortion is wrong, they ultimately get there.

Dillon: “I would say, I would lay it out like this, I would say: it is wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human life. Abortion intentionally kills an innocent human life. Therefore abortion is wrong. And I don’t think any of the, I don’t think any of the examples of like, oh, well how developed is it? You know, can it think, is it conscious, can it dream, can it feel pain-

Rogan: “So for you, it’s the moment of conception”

Dillon: “If it’s a human life, a distinct human life, then I think it’s wrong to to end its life.”

The discussion ultimately concludes with Rogan acknowledging:

Rogan: “…When you talk about like (aborting) someone who’s at six months or nine months; that gets crazy. That’s like, you’re literally killing a baby, you’re killing a baby that could exist outside the world if-“

Dillon: “What if rape produced it, and it’s eight months old in the womb?”

Rogan: “That’s a good question. That’s also what makes it a very, very messy conversation.”

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Andy Stanley Praises Being a ‘Fence Sitter’ in New CNN Interview

North Point Community Church “impastor” Andy Stanley continued his wretched job of smarmily assessing what’s wrong with Christendom and then explaining why he and his church are nailing it 24/7, this time in an interview he did with CNN about his new book Not in It to Win It: Why Choosing Sides Sidelines The Church.

Stanley has been on our radar recently, after saying it doesn’t matter if the bible is true, so long as it’s ‘mostly reliable’, saying that the “foundation of our faith is not the whole bible, and opening up his church service with a Led Zeppelin concert

Stanely, who has mastered the art of clucking his tongue, shaking his head, and speaking in an exasperated tone like everyone should come to his conclusion, makes the case that choosing sides in the current political and social war only sidelines the church. Instead, he says churches should remain neutral so as not to alienate anyone, using his own church’s response to the pandemic, (he closed down for a year and lamented the fact that churches were fighting the government to stay open and have their church services, saying he was embarrassed by it.) the death of George Floyd ( who he called “this generation’s ‘Samson‘ in a since-deleted tweet) and the 2020 election, where he’s said Christians can vote Democrat and run as Democrats all the want, and that there’s nothing wrong with it, repeatedly claiming an absolute equivalence of the current political parties.

Thankfully, the interviewer pushes Stanley on the consistency of his position of not wanting to get involved in political or controversial issues (nowhere in his book does he mention abortion for example) but by and large, Stanley stumbles through the interview, getting caught multiple times in the inconsistency of his own passiveness.

Q- You said in the book that when churches take a political side, they’re already alienating half of the country. Are there political issues where a pastor shouldn’t be neutral even at the risk of being identified with a political party? The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. worked with the Democratic Party and a Democratic president to get the 1965 Voting Rights Act passed. Was he being too political? Was he wrong to align with the Democratic Party?

When a cultural issue intersects with the teachings of Jesus, we definitely should say something. The problem is when we do that — which we should — we do that knowing that … if I take a more left-leaning position on gun control — which I wouldn’t, because in my mind that’s a very complicated issue — but if I did, then I realize that the Republicans in my church are going to put me in the bucket of everything that the Democrats believe, because there’s no middle ground now. There’s no nuance. It’s tricky.

As a pastor I’m responsible for preaching the whole counsel of God. But talking about an issue is different than aligning with a party or aligning with a candidate. Even to say: ‘This is what Jesus teaches on this particular issue, this is what we should do, and that’s why I’m voting for…’ Nope. We should just stick with those specific issues without wholesale buying into a political party.

When pressed about whether he would have spoken out against Jim Crow segregation laws of the 1950s, Stanley is forced to acknowledge that given his ideology, he probably wouldn’t have done anything.

When I hear you talking about pastors being neutral on political issues, I think of history. There were a lot of White Southern Baptist pastors in the South who said they wanted to be neutral when civil rights leaders started holding protests in the 1950s. They didn’t speak out about Jim Crow segregation because they didn’t want to seem political, but it was really moral cowardice.

I understand that pressure. I’m not going to be arrogant enough to say If I’d been one of them, I tell you what I would have done — because I don’t know, and nobody does. But they were wrong. And many of them looked back later and were ashamed, as they should be. I would like to be better than that, but I don’t know.

Despite Stanley wanting to always ride the fence, the fact is that the devil owns the fence. Not all sides are equally righteous, as he seems to think, but one side must be unrighteous and should be avoided. Plus there are some areas where he has clearly chosen sides. Take the George Floyd situation he chided people on., Apart from saying this about the man:

He also went off haranguing and scolding people on the issue. He’s said before that everyone is a little racist, claimed that ‘you have to offend white people’ or else they’ll never repent of racism, said from the pulpit “here’s an uncomfortable fact: white people fear black men” and went on a woke Critical Race Theory tirade by arguing “it’s not enough to be ‘not racist,’ you must be ‘anti-racist,” before telling them that they’re all racists in their hearts.

Stanley chooses sides all the time, it’s just that he picks the wrong one while pretending he’s not at all.

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Babylon Bee asks Elon Musk to Accept Jesus as his Savior in Wide-ranging Interview

Several days ago, the Babylon Bee, Christendom’s premiere satire website, managed to snag a two-hour interview with Elon Musk, the billionaire founder and CEO of Tesla, Space-X. Musk is well-known for his love of memes and has occasionally retweeted the Bee.

At the end of the show, after guests are invited to give rapid-fire answers to 10 questions, one of the hosts asks Musk to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Here is his answer*:

Bee: “To make this church, we’re wondering if you could do us a quick solid and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.”

Musk: “I mean, let’s just say like, I agree with the principles that Jesus advocated. There’s great wisdom in the teachings of Jesus. And I agree with those teachings. And things like turn the other cheek, are very important because, as opposed to an eye for an eye, an eye for an eye leads everyone blind. So forgiveness, you know, it’s important and treating people as you would wish to be treated. Love thy neighbour as thyself. Very important.”

Bee: “So that’s like a 60 70% ‘yes’?”

Musk: “I would say I believe in the God of Spinoza. (Editor’s Note. Baruch Spinoza was a famous Philosopher during the 17th century who basically argued that God and nature were one, and ferociously rejected the God of the bible. So hey, if Jesus is saving people, I mean, I wouldn’t stand in his way. You know, like, “sure I’ll be saved, why not?”

Bee, clapping with crosstalk: “Sweet. We did it!. I think he just said yes. We got him! Do you want to get baptized or anything real quick?”

Musk: “I was baptized. Yeah, they dunked me in the water when I was just a baby. I even had, like, you know, whatever, the blood and water of Christ. That was kind of weird, you know? As a little kid, let’s give him some weird-tasing wine You know like ‘what the hell is this?’ I’m like ‘isn’t this kind of weird?”

Bee, looking at camera: “just cut it off when he said ‘yes.'”

Musk: “Is this kind of like, some weird metaphor for cannibalism or something. I don’t get it. Like what the hell? I remember thinking that was just crazy when I was a kid. And like ‘whoa’ you know? Even as a metaphor it’s kind of odd, you know? So it’s like, should we giving alcohol to minors?”

Bee: “We do grape juice, we’re Baptists. But I think it’s unusual to even be thinking about that as a kid. As a kid you just go through the motions, and it’s later on that you think, ‘wait a minute, what does this actually represent? What am I doing?”

Musk: “No, when I was a kid, I was like, ‘is this actually the blood and body? What? I’m not for eating somebody…this is just pretty odd’. You know, I remember thinking that even at age five. So I was definitely in Sunday school, when they were telling me all the stories and I was like, asking questions and like, they really were upset that I was asking questions. I was like ‘how did Jesus feed the crowd with five loaves of bread and three fish, like, how big was the crowd? And like, where did the fish and bread come from? From his cloak or something?

Because I was reading books, and I was like, did they materialize? Where do they come from, you know? Would you take a bite of the bread and the bread would just come back to being a full bread? They left out the details”

Bee: “Where did the universe come from?”

Musk: “Well, I’m not saying I know all the answers here. It’s just, Jesus was obviously very pro-alcohol, you know? Because one of his miracles was turning water into wine. Yeah, that was like they were having a party. They ran out of wine, and they’re like “let’s keep this bender going” Who can solve this problem? Friggin stores closed. Jesus like “I got you: water, now wine.” And they’re like “party on!” So pro-partying with alcohol was literally one of the miracles. So it’s definitely- you’re the savior, you keep the party going with lots of wine. That’s great. “

We’re grateful the Bee broached the subject, but ultimately, the whole thing was awkward given that they assumed that Musk knew the gospel or anything about Christianity, which he did not.

It would have been far more profitable to say something like “because we’re a bunch of Christians here, we’d regret it if we didn’t at the very least explain to you what the gospel is that we believe, because it’s one of those things that frequently gets twisted and lost and misrepresented” and give him a clear presentation, rather than making a joke out of it an having the whole thing be a non-starter.

To be blunt, if anything, the attitude and tone they took about it could very well be viewed as blasphemous. It was not good at all and came across as if they really didn’t care that he be given a serious, biblical view of the gospel- because whatever that was, it wasn’t the gospel. Joking is all well and good, but this is not something you joke about.

It’s a missed opportunity, but we hope they get another chance at it one day.

*Editor’s Note. Because Musk has a bit of a speech impediment and an occasionally jilted way of talking, we lightly edited the interview for clarity.

Editor’s Note 2. Our initial article didn’t go into our displeasure with the presentation, and we added a few lines to highlight the problems. Original post can be seen here.

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Evangelical Stuff Featured News

‘I Almost Broke my Shoulder’: Arrested Candian Pastor Describes Miserable Jail Conditions

In a jailhouse interview with Rebel News reporter Adam Soos, a Canadian Pastor arrested for the crime of having church services over the 15-person capacity says that he has been subjected to poor conditions while in jail, alleging that he is being thrown around, deprived of sleep and has been refused a lawyer during his stay there [Update: he has since been able to get a hold of legal counsel.]

Pastor Artur Pawlowski, who was taken down and arrested in a dramatic raid after leaving his church, explains:

Here’s what happened after the video. I was thrown like a piece of meat behind the police vehicles, and I had to go for about an hour, hour and a half (in the) back of police car laying down on my handcuffs (unintelligible) and I almost broke my shoulder.

So that was until we got to (unintelligible) then of course, the processing unit. I was with my brother, we were taken to two different separate (house?)…

They’re not allowing us to sleep, so for 24 hours I can’t sleep. The lights are so bright it’s absolutely crazy, even though other inmates for example across from my cell they turned the lights off and he could go to sleep. I don’t have that same courtesy.

We do not have blankets, we do not have pillows, nothing. We had to spend the whole day yesterday and the whole night and half a day right now on concrete, on cold concrete.

So that’s the situation here. I was never contacted by a lawyer. It’s shocking at the treatment. I’m being viewed here as a monkey in the circus. From time to time police will come and just look through the window oh, you know, like a trophy.

But I’m in a good spirit. I’m not going to quit. It will not silence me. I’ll keep doing what I’m doing because if I don’t have freedom, then I have nothing else. If we don’t have the freedom to worship our God, then what else do we have?

Pawlowski and Soos talk a bit more about his predicament, talking about the state of his cell and the fact that he’s going to file a lawsuit against those who locked him down. He calls Alberta Premier Jason Kenny “evil” and laments that he’s become a political prisoner on account of his stand. He speaks of the need for Canadians to rise up and oust these traitorous politicians, noting that on account of everything they have 11 candidates in their own church and they hope they get elected so they can clean up the corruption that would put him in prison in the first place.

If you don’t have the freedom of religion, all the other rights are disappearing as well. We have to stand up and Christians-rise up stand up right now.

I mean, if not now, then when?

As for his final words?

I want to tell you Jesus wins in the end, and when we stand with him, that’s where I draw my hope. My hope is in Christ. He redeemed me. He saved me. He changed the corrupted man into the man I am today and I give him all the glory. And if you are depressed or suicidal or in a tough situation remember that God has your back and we know how the story ends. Truth wins in the end.

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News

Tim Hurd of BTWN Interviews Pastor James Coates: Questions Timestamped

Friend of the ministry Tim Hurd of the Bible Thumping Wingnut had a chance to interview Pastor James Coates on the weekend, asking him a host of questions that were submitted by listeners and supporters. Here is the full interview, with timestamped questions below.

1:32 When did you go to the Masters’s seminary and when did you become Pastor of the Church?

2:37 When did God save you?

3:52 How do you get locked out of your Church when Covid-19 isn’t that bad in Alberta?

6:39 What time do you think the Police showed up to put the fence up around your church facility?

8:28 What would happen if you didn’t decide to meet secretly, but showed up to the church anyway and had your sermon publicly there?

10:43 What did you think when you saw the fence being taken down by protesters?

13:23 How do you decide when to obey or disobey the government?

15:56 How would you respond to other pastors and brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree with your stance? Those who are saying ‘we can still worship in Alberta’ and ‘they are not being persecuted.’

18:51 Have you seen spiritual growth among your congregation and in the leadership of the church because of this?

22:55: What do you think is going to happen with all this. Will your worship team be arrested next week, might you be imprisoned again? What do you think the future hods?

27:15 While you were in prison, were you ever tempted to give in and sign the condition statement? How hard was it not to?

28:57 One day you heard you were being let out. How did that come about and what changed their mind?

32:59 Did you watch the interviewers Erin did while you were in prison? What did you think of her doing the interviews and the thing she was saying? What about the critique that it should have been the elders giving the statement.

36:01 Thoughts on some mosques showing full parking lots, and whether or not there is a double standard.

39:39 Did you preach the gospel to other inmates in prison? What about the rumor you couldn’t have a bible?

… so you know would I’d walk by doors to connect with another inmate and on the way, there’d be guys banging on the cell door and getting me to pray for them. And so I had tons of opportunity to share the gospel with the inmates. Not so much with the guards because they’re kept quite a bit removed from you, but let me just tell you this story just to kind of show you the relationship that I had with these guys.

On my final moment basically, as I’m leaving the cell- everyone knows when you’re leaving- and there was lots of visibility around my leaving because I had a court case, a court hearing and then the radio station was announcing my release and so everyone was almost waiting and looking for me to be released. And everyone in the cell can see the exit door and the exit entrance from their cell, and so as I was about to leave and I’m getting to that door, the cell doors are banging.

And there would have been, you know, 30 plus cells with in some cases 2 guys in each cell, so you know 50 to 70 guys. And so I turned around and I waved and the place just shook. I mean it was a moment. And I looked over at the guards to just say ‘see you guys’ and ‘appreciate you and I could see that they were impacted by it. I mean like this was unusual that this would this kind of response would take place as I left, and that the chaplain was there for that moment to witness it and he emailed me after the fact and just said ‘I’ll never forget that moment’. It was just a moment where they were expressing support respect affection for me, and it was a sweet, sweet moment.

45:02 How can people pray for you? How can people help?

48:03 Asking about a message he gave where James describes how ministry and fellowship within a church must take place face-to face.

52:33 In what Ways has John Macarthur reached out to you?

54:32 What scriptures have strengthened you and encouraged you during this time of difficulty with the government?

57:46 How have your church numbers been? How has attendance been impacted by this?

1:00:16 Thoughts on Government taking your building/ has this happened in Canada before?

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Charismatic Nonsense Evangelical Stuff Featured

Justin Bieber Slams ‘Pedestal Pastors’ While Talking up Heretic

Justin Bieber recently granted a long-form interview to Zach Baron of GQ Magazine, spending nearly the whole thing talking about his faith and beliefs and the transition from the world’s biggest musical artist whose life was in shambles, to a stable, growing family man and husband. A few things worth highlighting.

On his marriage. How his wife is a “strong, consistent, stabilizing force in his life,” and how it has grounded him.

“The first year of marriage was really tough, because there was a lot, going back to the trauma stuff. There was just lack of trust. There was all these things that you don’t want to admit to the person that you’re with, because it’s scary. You don’t want to scare them off by saying, ‘I’m scared.’ ”

…[now] we’re just creating these moments for us as a couple, as a family, that we’re building these memories. And it’s beautiful that we have that to look forward to. Before, I didn’t have that to look forward to in my life. My home life was unstable. Like, my home life was not existing. I didn’t have a significant other. I didn’t have someone to love. I didn’t have someone to pour into. But now I have that.”

On how he relates to God, the call on his life, and how he talks to the Lord.

“He is grace. Every time we mess up, He’s picking us back up every single time. That’s how I view it. And so it’s like, ‘I made a mistake. I won’t dwell in it. I don’t sit in shame. But it actually makes me want to do better.’ 

…my goal isn’t to try and persuade anybody to believe in what I believe or condemn anybody for not believing what I believe. If it can help someone, great. If someone’s like, ‘Hey, I don’t believe that. I don’t think that’s true,’ by all means, that’s their prerogative.”

…I came to a place where I just was like, ‘God, if you’re real, I need you to help me, because I can’t do this on my own. Like, I’m struggling so hard. Every decision I make is out of my own selfish ego.’ So I’m just like, ‘What is it that you want from me? You put all these desires in my heart for me to sing and perform and to make music—where are these coming from? Why is this in my heart? What do you want me to do with it? What’s the point? What is the point of everything? What is the point of me being on this planet?’ ”

…I just kept trusting what He said and what He’s saying to me . And I just believe He speaks to me. It’s not audible. I don’t hear His audible voice. I don’t know if people do. I know people have said it, and in the Bible it talks about that, but I just never heard it. It’s more like nudges: Don’t do this. Or: Set these boundaries.”

On pastors who put themselves on pedestals and his attraction to new pastor Judah Smith, and why he trusts him.

“I think so many pastors put themselves on this pedestal. And it’s basically, church can be surrounded around the man, the pastor, the guy, and it’s like, ‘This guy has this ultimate relationship with God that we all want but we can’t get because we’re not this guy.’ That’s not the reality, though. The reality is, every human being has the same access to God.”

[Judah Smith] put our relationship first…[Bieber explains that he noticed Smith’s family seemed to care for one another] [That] was something I always dreamed of because my family was broken. My whole life, I had a broken family. And so I was just attracted to a family that eats dinners together, laughs together, talks together.”

Bieber is active on social media making consistent professions of faith, inviting a variety of pastors on to give the gospel. He will frequently talk about Jesus and his relationship with him, what parts of the bible he and his wife Hailey are reading, what he learned from a sermon, and will pray with his tens of millions of followers. He is a member of Hillsong Choir and has led worship at pal Judah’s Smith Churchome, as well as has preached from the pulpit.

Pastor Judah Smith lead Churchome, a hip-to-be-cool, celebrity-endorsed 10,000 member megachurch that recently cemented their theological obliviousness by bringing on Trinity-denying Modalist T. D. Jakes as a Board Member of their congregation.

The Seattle-based church, spread across its five locations in Washington State and California, joins other celebrity preachers like now-disgraced Carl Lentz and Elevation Church’s Steven Furtick in having very close ties with the “Jesus is a manifestation of God” Pentecostal Bishop.

By way of a brief profile, the Smiths are about as seeker-sensitive and biblically compromised as they come. They live in a multi-million dollar home and have a penchant for Gucci luxury clothes, where a single outfit can cost upwards of $ 5000$. They count Justin Bieber as one of their members and let him occasionally lead worship, with theoerotic songs like Reckless Love being a mainstay.

He frequently tweets stupid, unbiblical things like this, clearly having no knowledge of Acts 10:38, 2 Corinthians 5:10, John 5:22, 27, and other scriptures.

He is, by all accounts, emblematic of the skinny-jeans-wearing soyboy pastors that breed effemininity and are a blight on the church today.

As for where the couple stands on abortion and LGBT issues, more unbiblical, cagey, waffling garbage abounds. In a long-form article in Marie Claire that is worth the read, writer Jennifer Swann quickly zeroes in on the ethos of the couple, explaining they are as squishy as one can be.

We pray that Bieber leaves that church and find one where the scriptures and sound theology are actually taught.

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Charismatic Nonsense Church Evangelical Stuff Featured

Korn Guitarist Brian ‘Head’ Welch Says He May Have Gone ‘Too Far’ with his Christianity

A new interview with Korn guitarist Brian ‘Head’ Welch, has the famed musician-turned-Christian saying that while his faith may have saved him from an alcohol and drug addiction, he also may have “went too far” with his preaching, explaining he “got obsessed with it, just like I was obsessed with drugs.”

Speaking to Robb Flynn on the No Fu—- Regrets Podcast, Welch explains that he was deeply addicted to drugs, even doing meth for 700 days straight. Lost in his addiction and dependency, he found Jesus, quit everything cold turkey, starting aggressively sharing his faith, left the band in 2005 (later rejoined in 2013) and has since then released albums and documentaries about his experience and life.

After Flynn asked Welch if he believed his faith became his “new addiction,” replacing drugs with a Jewish Messiah, Welch responded:

The crazy thing is I had an experience with something from another dimension. And it wasn’t the religion — going to church and being a good boy — it was, like, I felt something come into my house, and I can’t explain it to this day. But I believe that it was Christ doing something in me. So that was real — that was very real.

But yes, I think I went too far with it. And I got obsessed with it, just like I was obsessed with the drugs. I believe I did, for sure. And I had to come out of that and find normalcy, because there’s nothing worse than a freakin’ irritating religious person just shoving it down your throat — there’s nothing worse than that.

And you saw it on the documentary [Loud Krazy Love], Jonathan’s [Davis, Korn singer] like, ‘I hate those motherfu—– people, can’t stand ’em.’ And for years, we’ve had those Christians outside of Korn concerts, saying Korn’s of the devil, and all this. It’s crazy — it’s a crazy thing. But I’m just glad I got through it. And I’m glad that I am who I am now, and I have a lot of peace and rest for my soul. I feel very leveled and at peace with myself.

Welch is deeply ingrained in the charismatic/pentecostal side of the faith. A few years ago he was featured on the Film “Holy Ghost” where charlatan Todd White did a leg-lengthening parlor trick on film at a Korn concert, with the film director explaining:

So we headed out to the crowd, with both Brian Welch and Fieldy, the bass player in the band and another born again believer in tow, and what followed was simply electric. Within minutes we were surrounded by nearly a hundred kids, an atheist was healed, and about 40 kids accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior. The guys were so pumped we decided to do it again after the concert.

Sure enough, another 20 or so kids accepted Jesus, many were healed, and Brian and Fieldy realized what they were capable of using their celebrity for on the road.

Furthermore, after South Carolina passed their controversial HB2, the law stating that people could only use the restroom and changing facility that corresponds with the sex on their birth certificate, tons of musicians, artists and government agencies cancelled the state. Welch and Korn spoke out against this “hateful bill,” saying in a statement:

We don’t care where you pee – just please flush. It’s pretty simple, really. We’ve decided to partner with Equality NC, the LGBTQ advocacy group leading the fight against this hateful bill. You can talk to Equality NC at our show about how to get involved, and get registered to vote in NC. That way we won’t have to talk about this the next time we come back there. We’re coming to North Carolina to show our fans that they can make the difference needed to repeal this law and return their state to a place that welcomes everyone and values differences.

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Church Evangelical Stuff Featured

Rapper Lecrae Sputters ‘You know…well…um…er….ah….I don’t know’ When asked about Sin of Homosexuality in Interview

In an interview reminiscent of Joel Osteen repeatedly saying “I don’t know” to CNN’s Larry King’s questions about the exclusivity of Christ, a visibly uncomfortable Lecrae hemmed and hawed his way through an interview asking about whether he’d go to a gay wedding and ultimately whether or homosexuality is a sin, serving as a damning indictment against the once-favored son of TGC and showing himself ashamed of God’s word.

In an interview with DJ Vlad, posted in part below, the host pressed Lecrae on his opinion of Chick-Fil-A President Dan Cathy making statements that are pro-family and against homosexuality, wanting to know if he agrees with them.

Lecrae, clearly not wanting to discuss any of this, engages in a bit of shucking and thriving, dancing around the answers in hopes of maintaining a burgeoning career and the approval of the world, putting on some comically clueless facial expressions and awkwardly asking Vlad “Does he still stand by that today?” as if our Lord’s view on marriage and sex and family is somehow not true yesterday, today, and forever. Seriously. The man looks shook to his soul.

Quickly confronted with a followup question over what the hop-hop-artist would do if his son were to come out as a homosexual, Lecrae puts on a masterclass of Matthew 10:33.

My thing is like this, I don’t… like… my brother’s gay..you know what I’m saying? And I don’t…I don’t condemn him. I don’t look down on him for him being attracted to [the same sex]. I don’t condemn him, you know what I’m saying? Like, if anything we will dialogue so that I can have a better understanding. Cuz’ I don’t profess to be like ‘I got this all figured out, and I know the way this should be.’ Like, I’m trying to read the bible, I’m trying to have conversations with people, and I’m trying to understand, you know the perspective, you know what I’m saying?

And I feel like anybody who wants to come at a person negatively, like, if you were a Christian and you came at me negatively, then it’s like you’re not giving me the grace and the space to be a learner. You know what I mean? Help me, you know, give me the grace and space to learn, and that’s how we move forward.

Lecrae is 40 years old and has claimed to be a Christian for half that. He’s rubbed shoulders with the who’s who of Christian leaders for nearly the whole time, and he still doesn’t know that Homosexuality is a sin? Is he ignorant, or just a coward?

“You can point something out to me and say ‘hey, this is what it says, Lecrae. You should know better, you should know this.’ Well, you know, give me the grace and the space to take my time and to understand the perspective on it and to understand why these people think this way and like, that’s the perspective I have. I’m more of a learner and I give people the grace and the space as I’m processing and as I’m learning and just walk with people through that, you know what I mean? Just be a life-long learner, man.

Vlad asks Lecrae if he’d be in his son’s gay wedding if he were asked to, and he totally would.

My thing is this. I want to support my son and let him know that I love him, you know what I’m saying? Let him know that I care about him. So for me it’s not about–my son’s going to know it’s not about a wedding,- it’s about, like, my dad being supportive of who I am as a person through and through, you know what I’m mean?

Unbelievably, he then proceeds to compare the sinfulness of a homosexual lifestyle to a preference between which sports his son is going to play.

Like, it’s not about do you agree with this decision or do you agree with this decision. You know what I’m saying? My son wants to play football and not basketball. I don’t like that…you know what I’m saying? I’m like ‘Bruh, I want you to play basketball, I don’t want you to play football. But I love you.’ You know what I mean? So even if I prefer you play basketball, I love you the person, so I’m going to rock with you the person, and I’m gonna walk with you. I’m a still be with you for the rest of your life.”

So, you know what I’m saying I don’t know. You know, there’s some people who are not seeing, not going to wedding because they just didn’t like the spouse. Was that ok? You know what I’m saying? Like I just don’t like your spouse. I don’t like the fact that they’re older than you or younger than you. That’s some preferential type of stuff. And I mean like, give people the grace and the space to navigate that. ‘Why he can’t marry her? Oh, cuz I think she’s a golddigger’ well..you know..walk through this. You know what I’m saying?

It is quite evident that everyone knows exactly what he is saying.

Now I get it to form the standpoint of like..is it wrong or is it right, and that’s where I will say there’s so much nuance to it for me, in term of like….is marriage uh…..uhh…are we talking as a government sanction situation? Are we talking about two Christians, because if it’s two people who believe in the bible and they’re holding to what the bible says, well then now I’m like “what do you believe the bible says about this?

If you don’t believe the bible, then cool why am I having this conversation with you? You know what I’m saying? It’s like, you do what you want to do.

Lecrae has said the quote he loves and lives by is “If you live for peoples acceptance, you’ll die from their rejection.”

The man is living all right.